Talk:Items

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I'm finding this new layout for items more difficult to use than the straightforward a-z list that was there before.

It might be worth breaking this page up.

How about a page per item?

Maybe using a template?

Elseware 17:05, 24 Nov 2005 (GMT)

I think page/item is a bit much given the amount of text we currently have per item. Splitting into several pages by type (weapon, tool etc) seems to me to be a better solution at least for now. Is it possible to produce automatically an index page which spans several other pages?

Page per item seems the most sensible to me; we'll have to edit a lot of links between pages, and it would be daft to have to do that more than once if we then decide that some of the resulting item pages are too large. Irritatingly, I meant to do this about a month ago, when the problem wouldn't have been quite as severe. Nick 19:10, 25 Nov 2005 (GMT)
As an aside, it might be a good idea to generate the templates for the items from the source code itself in order to save time (removing any of the items that aren't yet documented). Nick 19:11, 25 Nov 2005 (GMT)
I'd be willing to make some off-wiki scripts which link to pages in the wiki. One page for each type of item by the splits used in the inventory: weapons, useful stuff, junk, tarot cards, alchol. I might go as far as making a node for each item. once. new items would have to be added by players. I might go as far as basic damage and tohit modifier. comments?
I agree with the unsigned user above that a page per item seems excessive, though Nick's counter is also very convincing. Is it possible to have the information from the individual item pages collected in a summary page that draws its content from the individual entries? So that one would only have to edit the individual page and the summary page would adjust itself accordingly? Markus 23:29, 19 Dec 2005 (GMT)

I would like to clean up the items section a little bit. Basicly the items should be found as they are spelled in the game, thus moving "Mug of coffee" (M), "Wand of Illusion" (W), "Pair of Magic Boots" (P), "Dose of Magic Powder" (D) and so on. Entries like "Red chalk" (R) could have a link under "Chalk", same with "Enchanted Charcoal", "Huge Fire Cracker". Hats should be sorted in alphabetical order, since they have their own listing at the beginning. Any objections? Peskil 04 Jan 2006

It might also be worth adding additional index sections at the beginning to cover, say, food. Also the "Magic items" index needs adding to. Darksatanic 11:11, 4 Jan 2006 (GMT)
Everything is now sorted alphabetically. I renamed some entries, like charcoal -> unit of charcoal, hope all links on other pages still work. There are a few entries which seem to be wrong/outdated. Should we delete them?
- Pen (fountain pen?)
- Whip (bull whip?)
@Darksatanic: What ARE "Magic Items" in game terms? Wands, hats, special weapons, cloaks etc. Maybe we should remove this index Peskil 19:34, 04 Jan 2006
That's a good job of tidying you've done.
As far as I know, Pen and Whip can be deleted if you've already got Fountain Pen and Bull Whip.
The "official" classification (see [[1]]) of magic items seems to be (some) Stones and Talismans only. However, Wands, and items with "Magic" in the title would also seem to be suitable. You're right, it's not clear at all. In some senses, _most_ items are "magic" as they allow you to do things that you couldn't do without. Alternatively, no items are magic, since they're all functioning within the physics of the game. :)
I think you're right for now -- just remove the index. Darksatanic 18:54, 4 Jan 2006 (GMT)
Done :-) Peskil 21:07, 04 Jan 2006
Check Reminder:
- Goody Basket (no text)
- Pokey Finger (no text)

I'll take suggestions for reordering the categories in-game. Elseware 20:43, 4 Jan 2006 (GMT)

Here are just some thoughts of mine based on my actual inventory:
rename Handy - "Equipment"
rename Junk - "Usefull Stuff" or "Commodities" (right word?)
move some stuff like
can of Red Bull -> Food
all wands, balls, stones, jewels, talismans, palantiers -> magic
pocket watch, field glas, ruby slippers, hats -> equipment
clean bandages, fire crackers, all maps, sextants -> usefull stuff / Commodities
maybe new category "Quest items" creature list, guide to time and space, sack (for snarks) ...
Peskil 12:13, 06 Jan 2006

The Sword of Omens says The Sword of Omens allows you to see about twice as far and see what enemies are around you. This ability is approximately equivalent to the power given to qualified Doctors. However, it will take away more AP to move while holding it.

but while moving around on the road with it, it does not affect my moving cost (still one point, no cost reducers). Is that supposed to happen? --Ziabatsu 21:19, 18 Jan 2006 (GMT)

It seems that someone's done some major rewriting of the wiki lately. If it's not too late, I'd like to suggest that we do this, to get the best of both worlds: Every item has its own page, but for easy browsing (which can be very helpful at letting people get up to speed when initially learning the game), we could leverage the templating features of the Wiki to embed all item descriptions in the categorical pages. I put a proof-of-concept example at the end of Sandbox. Stevie-O 20:46, 31 Jan 2006 (GMT)

Contents

Testing new item format

The Making Stuff page could use some improvement. It's difficult to determine what components are useful in a variety of ways, and what components are only good for one item. It's also difficult to see everything you'll need for construction without following a series of (varying-quality) links. From what I can determine, strings are only good for fishing poles---but I can't tell. This is an experimental format, but it's inspired by the Kingdom of Loathing wiki.

On a side note, catalysts are bold, and key items are italic, but only where there is more than one item in a construction step.

Alas, HTML/Wiki is not my first language. Is there a better way for this, that would eliminate the double-borders on the "inside" tables?

Cucumber Sandwich Construction
 
Earth 3AP Sheaf of Wheat
Bag of Flour
Earth 3AP 3 x Bag of Flour
Handful of Dough
Fire 10AP Handful of Dough
2 x Loaf of Bread
Air 1AP Loaf of Bread
8 x Slice of Bread
Air 3AP Cucumber
4-6 Slices of Cucumber
Water 3AP 1 Vial 3 Garlic 1 Olive Oil 1 Bottle Vinegar
Salad Dressing
Water 3AP 2 x Slices of Bread 5 x Cucumber Slices Salad Dressing
Cucumber Sandwich

On a random side note, I think that even pages on base components like sheaf of wheat would be useful, with a list of what they're good for. Example (somewhere in the sheaf of wheat page):

Used In

Bag of Flour

Handful of Dough

Loaf of Bread

Slice of Bread

Cucumber Sandwich

Bacon Sandwich

Club Sandwich

Bag of Grain Mash

Gorgan-zola Sandwich

Toast

Buttered Toast

Jammy Toast

Granted, a list this long for sheaf of wheat might be overkill. But it isn't too long, considering its usefulness. And there are few items used in so many locations. PotatoEngineer 12:06, 8 March 2006 (GMT)

PotatoEngineer, I like your construction table. I'm not sure about the links to everything an item might possibly be used in, to the nth level, though. I like to write where an item is found, what it is used for, and what can be made from it, with links to the layers above and below. I quite enjoy following the links on a journey through the wiki. I agree that at the moment these links are "of varying quality" and am working to update them all. Just my opinion though, and I know that wasn't your main point. I think the table is very nice. Vashka 21:38, 8 March 2006 (GMT)

Hm, good point on the "to the nth degree" bit. If we eventually end up with construction tables for all the complex items, there's no need for an exhaustive list of descendants. Then sheaf of wheat would just have Bag of Flour and Bag of Grain Mash, and there would be much less need for extensive editing if new items are added down the line. PotatoEngineer 01:23, 9 March 2006 (GMT)
Okay, each item in the Cucumber Sandwich tree now has its own page. Granted, a number of them are short, but one-page-per-item allows in-depth discussion of items where it would be distracting in a single-page-per-category system. To keep the disruption to a minimum, I've started turning the item names (in their various pages) into links, while leaving the links in item descriptions pointing to their usual places. I've also started the Item, MiscItem, Booze, and Food categories. Those categories should organize things better than the TOC-of-doom. PotatoEngineer 05:58, 9 March 2006 (GMT)


Vault Permit

Used to set up a stall in the vault, allows stuff to be stored, ideal for clearing out some of the clutter you might be carrying, hiding Blings from Bling Wraiths, hiding Herbs from your Tribbles, or simply keeping a spare stash of equipment for when you die.

WARNING: "Close Vault" means "I don't want the vault anymore, nor do I want any stuff in the vault." You lose your stuff!

I have 4 Vault Permits but don't know how to use them? where have you to go to use them? or what do you have to do? Fixspoun 08:35, 8 April 2007 (BST)
Break a Vault Talisman. They drop from monsters and are sold by wizards. --Dragon 04:08, 9 April 2007 (BST)

Item Categories

Reducing the number of items on the Items page, I can understand. However, moving items into categories that they don't really fit in, not caring whether they actually do fit or not, just to reduce the number of items on the Items page is taking things too far.

Instead of a "Vegetation" category, how about a "Quest Items" category? (I'm taking Scrumbucket's sage advice and asking for feedback here first.)

Items that could be moved there include:

This would move 20 items out, which would hopefully make up for my moving 9 items back in. Random4518 05:17, 3 September 2007 (BST)

If you are going to do that, don't forget to put minor placeholders for other items involved in quests, such as the items for the treasure hunt quest. The idea would be to list the item, name it, and then redirect the user to the proper page if they want to know more. Such as a Jar of Plum Jam is for the treasure hunt quest, and to learn more about it, go to its entry on the Food page. --Vainglory 05:25, 3 September 2007 (BST)
I'm cautious about this category, because 1) there are tons of potential "quest items," many of which are already categorized (all the Totem/Standing Stone/Treasure Hunt items), and 2) while most of the above will only be encountered in the course of trying to complete a specific quest, a classification as general as "quest items" doesn't necessarily help people find things. (If I just got a Tee from a khadi drop, how will I know to look at the quest items page?) --Dragon 06:56, 3 September 2007 (BST)

My suggestions for potential categories:

"Raw Materials" or "Resources":

  • Bit of Molten Glass
  • Black Powder
  • Gold Rune
  • Iron Ring
  • Jar of Gas
  • Lump of Beeswax
  • Mud
  • Oil
  • Piece of Ancient Wood
  • Piece of Cardboard
  • Piece of Mail
  • Piece of Wood
  • Rivet
  • Sheet of Paper
  • Silver Rune
  • Sulphur
  • Unit of Charcoal
  • Unit of Enchanted Charcoal
  • Unit of Sand

"Utility Items" (what every boy scout needs, or something):

  • Astrolabe
  • Bent Pin
  • Big Piece of Chalk
  • Box of Matches
  • Calendar
  • Clean Bandage
  • Compass
  • Contract Palantir
  • Empty Pinhole Camera
  • Fire Cracker
  • Flash Gun
  • Flash Gun (flat)
  • Fountain Pen
  • Gooey Palantir
  • GPS
  • Huge Fire Cracker
  • Magic Ball
  • Mirror
  • Palantir-as-you-go
  • Piece of Chalk
  • Pin
  • Pinhole Camera
  • Pocket Watch
  • Red Chalk
  • Safety Pin
  • Sextant
  • Space Rocket
  • Trebuchet
  • Water Skin

There's also the possibility of a "Passes and Permits" page, although half of those are currently on the Terraforming page. This would include those passes, plus Ball Invitation/Sorting Office Pass/plane tickets/Clinic Invite. --Dragon 06:56, 3 September 2007 (BST)

I really like the idea of having a raw materials page (this would include the items currently on the Metals page), but I'm not so sure about this "utility items" thing, because that category would also include half of the tools and half of a lot of other pages. Before we split the Items page into things that currently have a use and those that currently don't, we should think about better categories. Flt 08:42, 3 September 2007 (BST)
I'm not sure about the name (some of the materials aren't really "raw", per se), but I like the Raw Materials/Resources category idea, and incorporating the Metals page into it sounds good. Maybe Glassware could be moved there from Kitchen Gear? Random4518 14:01, 3 September 2007 (BST)
I like the raw materials page. The utility items page could be done better. Perhaps expand the consumables page to incorporate other one-use items. --Vainglory 09:56, 3 September 2007 (BST)

Category:Blork links

While we're discussing item categories, I just thought I'd bring up the idea of the Category:Blork links. The pages auto-generate if the Category: links are added, so it's a pretty minimal cost. Considering the different way things can be indexed (is charcoal a resource? crafted item? legume?), it'll let us have our cake and eat it too.

I'm all for creating a fairly large number of categories, and then adding about three or four categories to every item page. We could sort both by in-game category, and by "wiki" category. Here's a couple of starter lists. I imagine an average item would have three categories: Item (for everything), its in-game category (GameWeapon, perhaps), its wiki general category (Weapon), and its wiki specific category (Ranged Weapon). This would also give us the freedom to add very specific categories, so Furious Bows and Daemonic weapons could have their own mini-categories.

And since every category page allows a normal page above the (automatically-alphabetized) list of items, the category could describe the kinds of items that would go in it. Of course, this wouldn't entirely supplant the item-summary pages, but it would be a very easy index to add.

  • In-Game Categories: Weapon, Martial, Currency, Handy, Magic, Equip, Armour, Junk, Resource, Food, Booze, Tarot, Pop, Book, Spell, Letter, Meta
  • Wiki-created categories:
    • General: Misc Item, Unique Item, Meta
    • Weapons: Martial Arts, Ranged Weapons, Melee Weapons
    • Magic?: Wands, Talismans, Stones, Metals (what's this doing here, anyway?)
    • Victuals & Related, Booze, Non-Alcoholics, Food, Herbs, Potions and other Consumables, Animal Parts, Kitchen Gear, Tools
    • Paper & Play: Books, Letters, Maps, Music, Tarot Cards, Dice, Spells, Balls, Wizard Items
    • Travel: Movement Items, Boats and Plans
    • Equipment: Apparel, Hats, Bling, Glasses, Winter Survival, Light Sources, Armour, Pets

PotatoEngineer 18:08, 3 September 2007 (BST)

I'm in favour of adding more categories. I don't really like the idea of GameWeapon as a category, since "GameWeapon" isn't a real word and it would be pretty much identical to a Weapon category. Some items don't need to be given their own pages, like the books, cards and CDs, because they all do exactly the same thing. I have a couple of requests for people adding categories: (1) put the category tags in alphabetical order on a page; (2) category titles should be plurals or mass nouns. - Isambard 22:29, 3 September 2007 (BST)
The tricky bit is that the in-game category "Weapons" doesn't cover the martial arts weapons, but the wiki-category does. I suppose we could just ignore the game-category for that. For other overlaps, of course, I'm with you entirely. About the "categories as plurals," though, I was planning on having every item belong to the Item category. If we use plurals, that puts it into Items, which already exists as the category for the item-summary pages. PotatoEngineer 03:50, 4 September 2007 (BST)
I don't see why we need to pluralize the categories. It makes more sense to me to call a category for food, Category:Food instead of Category:Foods. I still think we should have a link on every individual item page that links back to the main page of that type. Perhaps we can simply make a subheading that says:
==Item Type: [[Food]] ==
Then uses and so on. It would allow players to find other items of the same type on one page, as some players have said they prefer. Would that be a better compromise rather than having a italicized blurb stating that they can "find other items of the same type in (insert item page type here)"? We can also break it up to list the in-game item type as well as the wiki item types. --Vainglory 07:46, 4 September 2007 (BST)
The categories could easily fill that need. Each category could have a link back to the item-summary pages. Granted, it would mean two clicks instead of one to get from an individual item page to the summary page, but it would clutter the individual item page a bit less. On that note, though, how do people look up their item information? Personally, I go to the Items page, and then find the summary page for the category. If I need more information, then I'll click on the item to get its individual page. Is using the search box to find the individual page more common? PotatoEngineer 12:03, 4 September 2007 (BST)
Typically, that is what I do. I know that the general wiki utilizes italicized links in case someone wants to learn more about a particular topic. Right now, the main pages basically contain all of the information on the item's individual page. We could trim down the information on the large pages by putting only the bare minimum and moving all of the conversations and extra details to the individual item pages. Then we include a link back to the main pages so that people can easily navigate back and forth without having to use the back button. It's simply good web page design. Sure, you can make it so that people use Ctrl+f to find things on the main pages or use the back button to get back to their original page, but people shouldn't have to. These pages should be as user-friendly as possible, because the wiki is designed to be an efficient means to finding out information about this game. We shouldn't make people hunt and peck for things, and we should try and cover all of the bases as much as possible. --Vainglory 12:14, 4 September 2007 (BST)
Wiki categories are always plurals or mass nouns (see Wikipedia for example). If you had a category called "Weapon", it would imply that there is only one weapon in the category. The existing categories already are plurals, so it would be hugely inconvenient to start changing them retroactively, and inconsistent to name new categories singularly. You've cited the category "Food" as an example, but "food" is a mass noun (which I approve of), whereas "foods" is only used in special cases. - Isambard 17:16, 4 September 2007 (BST)

Here's a reorg of the above stuff, pluralized and with the game & wiki categories merged. In general, each individual item should always have its in-game category, plus any other categories it may belong to. The chart below is mostly a guideline, as a number of items will have odd placements, but in general, most of the items in a lowest category should belong to all of the categories above it. (For instance, a Copper Axe is filed in-game under Junk, but is quite definitely a weapon, so it'll go under Items, Junk, Weapons, and Melee Weapons.)

The organization, to keep this chart from overwhelming the talk page, is:

  • Top Category
    • Lower Category: Lowest Categories
  • Items
    • Misc Items
    • Unique Items
    • Meta
    • Weapons: Martial Arts (Martial will also redirect here), Ranged Weapons, Melee Weapons
    • Currencies (no subcategories)
    • Handy: Wands, Maps (no other categories, but several items will also have a Handy category, like Daedalus Wings and Fire Crackers)
    • Magic: Stones, Talismans
    • Equipment: Apparel, Hats, Bling, Glasses, Winter Survival, Light Sources, Armour, Pets, Boats, Movement Items
    • Junk: Terraforming Kits, Boat Plans, Music, Dice, Balls
    • Resources: Metals, Kitchen Gear, Tools, plus many individual items
    • Victuals
      • Food: Potions & other Consumables, Animal Parts, Herbs
      • Drinks: Booze, Non-Alcoholics
    • Tarot (cards are the only item to get this cat in-game, but the deck would go here, too.)
    • Pop Too small, only deserves a page, not a category
    • Books
    • Wizard Items: Spells
    • Letters Too small, only deserves a page, not a category.
    • Travel: Movement Items, Boats, Boat Plans (repeated from elsewhere)

Is this about right, or does it need some more tweaking? PotatoEngineer 09:59, 10 September 2007 (BST)

Looks fine to me. I would suggest that all categories also be placed the "Items" umbrella category, rather than just having sub-sub categories which might be difficult to navigate. Also, I think the "Magic" category should have a different name since it might be associated with spells and wizards. Or we could just have Stones and Talismans as standalone categories. - Isambard 16:58, 10 September 2007 (BST)
Everything should be under Items, yes. The "Items" category is at top, so every item also goes under Items, and each of the categories can go there, too. Sorry if the layout seems a bit misleading, I just didn't want this chart taking up three screens vertically. PotatoEngineer 15:21, 15 September 2007 (BST)
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